I have realized that none of us fully reflect the image of God in that we are all broken in some ways. I think that the nuance that is often neglected at the level of public discourse is that God has established different means for completing His will here on earth. Government is a means of meting justice and defense, it's God given tool is coercion. That is why it should not be what we turn to in many of the problems we face in society. it is the wrong tool for the task. The church and the family are where most of the slack needs to be taken up as Christians learn to love their neighbor as themselves and rely on The Almighty Savior and Lord Jesus Christ for the power to impact the lives of those around them. Not everyone is fully equipped for this, but as the body of Christ, we should nourish and feed those organs who are loving the broken in our churches.
Yeah, I think there's a really important distinction between coercion and control, though context probably adds a lot of nuance. We're all coerced in various ways to comply with public order. I don't think that's a problem. What's a problem is when human dignity is compromised in an attempt to deal with the discomfort of the ill. This applies to physical illness as much as mental illness. Do you think that's fair?
yes, although you got my ADD mind on a tangent now thinking about dignity and the death penalty. Michael Knowles argues that the death penalty is necessary because otherwise, if we don't treat people (at the governmental level) according to their crimes we dehumanize them by making them not responsible for their own actions, as if they were animals. I do not think that cruelty should be a part of how our government treats people, but that doesn't mean that coercion, or lethal force is necessarily dehumanizing on the face of it. I'm pretty tired, not sure if I'm making sense or if I'll even agree with myself on a re-read so take what you want from this.
Yeah, I’m not sure I buy the idea that the death penalty isn’t humanizing. It’s a complicated problem for me because historically we didn’t have a prison industrial complex to keep the most violent off our streets, so the death penalty was kinda the only solution. But, equally, I’m not a fan of the prison industrial complex 🤓
I think hospitality is the name of the game, and it’s something I've wish we’d have named explicitly in the convo. Hospitality simultaneously is an invitation to participate and to do so as a person with intrinsic worth—both of which avoid the problems of abandonment and control. I think more churches would be surprised at the revelation of God in the most unlikely individuals (mad or not) with a meal at a common table. Am I understanding your comment rightly with this response?
As a mentally ill believer, also a philosopher who wrote their dissertation on Michel Foucault, the movement of my illness has been paralleled by my physical illness. In a strong sense both forms of illness are of a single piece.
For the rational/irrational double, I believe the resolve comes with the concept of non-rationality. Speaking in tongues, for example, is not irrational, but non-rational or has the status of a precursor to, or substructure to rationality. Mental illness for Freud is a breach in rationality, the loss of control, but for Foucault, it would be motive for movement to freedom. Because Foucault is a constructivist, that is his worldview is based on how we are constructed by our interaction with knowledge, our place in society is constructed by our relationship to power, and our ethical selves are constructed by how we interact with our daily world.
Thanks Joseph and Cody for sniffing out some of the aspects of our construction, our creatureliness, our being in the world. The Christian worldview has so often forbidden experience when it can't be isomorphically drawn in biblical terms.
The objectifying of humans as Foucault describes in his 18th and 19th century historical explorations, the Gaze of medicalization, is inherently dehumanizing.
It would be nice to chat if we could get a chance.
Thanks so much for your thoughts and honesty, this is all really great. I also think that the links between physical and mental illness are (thankfully) finally trickling down into general population. I’ve learned a lot, for example, about gut health and the brain in the last several years!
I am a therapist with many years of interacting with mentally ill Christians as well as Charismagic and Pentecostal ministries. I led a Christian clinic with two inpatient units so we interacted with all sorts of Christian leaders.
This discussion seems to focus on the current view of Psychiatry which elevates the individual rights above public order and interventions for the patient’s health needs.
i was lost when you began to discuss higher oriented philosophy and theology.
Thanks for your candor. I think that (as I heard him) Cody’s trying to say that we don’t need to choose between individual rights and public order. But perhaps he can add more…
I have realized that none of us fully reflect the image of God in that we are all broken in some ways. I think that the nuance that is often neglected at the level of public discourse is that God has established different means for completing His will here on earth. Government is a means of meting justice and defense, it's God given tool is coercion. That is why it should not be what we turn to in many of the problems we face in society. it is the wrong tool for the task. The church and the family are where most of the slack needs to be taken up as Christians learn to love their neighbor as themselves and rely on The Almighty Savior and Lord Jesus Christ for the power to impact the lives of those around them. Not everyone is fully equipped for this, but as the body of Christ, we should nourish and feed those organs who are loving the broken in our churches.
Yeah, I think there's a really important distinction between coercion and control, though context probably adds a lot of nuance. We're all coerced in various ways to comply with public order. I don't think that's a problem. What's a problem is when human dignity is compromised in an attempt to deal with the discomfort of the ill. This applies to physical illness as much as mental illness. Do you think that's fair?
yes, although you got my ADD mind on a tangent now thinking about dignity and the death penalty. Michael Knowles argues that the death penalty is necessary because otherwise, if we don't treat people (at the governmental level) according to their crimes we dehumanize them by making them not responsible for their own actions, as if they were animals. I do not think that cruelty should be a part of how our government treats people, but that doesn't mean that coercion, or lethal force is necessarily dehumanizing on the face of it. I'm pretty tired, not sure if I'm making sense or if I'll even agree with myself on a re-read so take what you want from this.
Hahaha. I hope you got some rest!
Yeah, I’m not sure I buy the idea that the death penalty isn’t humanizing. It’s a complicated problem for me because historically we didn’t have a prison industrial complex to keep the most violent off our streets, so the death penalty was kinda the only solution. But, equally, I’m not a fan of the prison industrial complex 🤓
thx. I enjoyed listening. at the end, I wondered where or how or when might hospitality come into play?
I think hospitality is the name of the game, and it’s something I've wish we’d have named explicitly in the convo. Hospitality simultaneously is an invitation to participate and to do so as a person with intrinsic worth—both of which avoid the problems of abandonment and control. I think more churches would be surprised at the revelation of God in the most unlikely individuals (mad or not) with a meal at a common table. Am I understanding your comment rightly with this response?
As a mentally ill believer, also a philosopher who wrote their dissertation on Michel Foucault, the movement of my illness has been paralleled by my physical illness. In a strong sense both forms of illness are of a single piece.
For the rational/irrational double, I believe the resolve comes with the concept of non-rationality. Speaking in tongues, for example, is not irrational, but non-rational or has the status of a precursor to, or substructure to rationality. Mental illness for Freud is a breach in rationality, the loss of control, but for Foucault, it would be motive for movement to freedom. Because Foucault is a constructivist, that is his worldview is based on how we are constructed by our interaction with knowledge, our place in society is constructed by our relationship to power, and our ethical selves are constructed by how we interact with our daily world.
Thanks Joseph and Cody for sniffing out some of the aspects of our construction, our creatureliness, our being in the world. The Christian worldview has so often forbidden experience when it can't be isomorphically drawn in biblical terms.
The objectifying of humans as Foucault describes in his 18th and 19th century historical explorations, the Gaze of medicalization, is inherently dehumanizing.
It would be nice to chat if we could get a chance.
Thanks so much for your thoughts and honesty, this is all really great. I also think that the links between physical and mental illness are (thankfully) finally trickling down into general population. I’ve learned a lot, for example, about gut health and the brain in the last several years!
I am a therapist with many years of interacting with mentally ill Christians as well as Charismagic and Pentecostal ministries. I led a Christian clinic with two inpatient units so we interacted with all sorts of Christian leaders.
This discussion seems to focus on the current view of Psychiatry which elevates the individual rights above public order and interventions for the patient’s health needs.
i was lost when you began to discuss higher oriented philosophy and theology.
Thanks for your candor. I think that (as I heard him) Cody’s trying to say that we don’t need to choose between individual rights and public order. But perhaps he can add more…
charismagic?